Rant about production period endangerment

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HJALMAR

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2016
88
Forgive me but I need to be straight.

Some of the community members presume to know the workflow and the pressure involved in making good quality content. Yet they still ask authors of an unfinished work piece to send it out to a complete stranger on the internet "for private use" or shout about release dates. Now me personally I don't understand this behavior any more than those who choose to steal stuff. (Not saying that its as serious though)

The production period should be respected and supported instead of all the usual pestering and private asks. This is a rising issue that I have had since the more public I go the less people actually are willing to let me work on my own terms. I do this for free on my personal time and the energy I put into it directly corresponds with the end result. I've have had frustrated talks with many authors of different fields and they tend to agree.

To me sending unreleased work to some odd internet person would be as bad as flipping the finger to the actual work and it would endanger the reputation of the release as it is still in Work In Progress state. In this day and age there is this presumption that everyone is special in some way and entitled to do whatever. This is not the fault of the individual since our societies constantly teach us for this thought.

However in the case of an artist or producer doing their work it is not to be rushed or stomped upon. The work is laid out to the public when it is finished, no sooner. Now this is nothing personal but this behavior is as tiring as the other usual Omsi community nonsense and it usually ends up slowing the production process or even stopping it all together in some cases.

All of this is not be taken as an insult to your excitement, I have it as well as an intense burning flame. However you shouldn't let that feeling consume you and it to guide your actions in the internet.

I ask you this: Would you ask a musician for a piece of an unfinished song?

Sincerely, Ratti
--------
I was not sure where the correct place for my rant would be so I laid it in here.
 
D

Deleted member 422

@HJALMAR Couldn't have put it better myself :)

I would also like to follow on and remind people that items released to the public are a privilege. It is not something that they owe you, or have to do, it is something they have chosen to do, to make your experience more enjoyable. Don't take it for granted because if the current course continues, there will be no good developers left.
 

SatoshiAaron

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2016
220
You don't have a point here at all. While it may be annoying, people asking for sample products should be a compliment. If people want samples products they are extremely pleased with your work. Also, many release dates on this site are not kept which rightly so can anger people. This thread is ridiculous and I don't see why you made it. If you don't want people complaining about release dates don't include one or don't even tell people that you are producing something, then you won't have any issues.
 
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D

Deleted member 422

You don't have a point here at all. While it may be annoying, people asking for sample products should be a compliment. If people want samples products they are extremely pleased with your work. Also, many release dates on this site are not kept which rightly so can anger people. This thread is ridiculous and I don't see why you made it. If you don't want people complaining about release dates don't include one or don't even tell people that you are producing something, then you won't have any issues.
I think its more the fact that you have no point. While it may be annoying...that's the exact thing we are ranting about. Asking for sample products is in fact a bad thing. This leads to the pestering which has been seen recently and is driving developers away.

People asking for release dates always leads to bad things. Look at London, a release date was announced which lead to mass confusion. If someone doesn't include a release date, there is always many questions about it, so again that point is useless.

That attitude, to me, also provokes people to leave. If every developer who got a tad annoyed stop announcing or releasing work, than the downloads section would be empty.

Also, may I ask why, this sort of pestering and asking for release dates that we so talk about, is banned from many sites? IF it were such a good thing, surely it would be promoted?

As Ratti greatly put it: Would you ask a musician for a piece of an unfinished song?

Good Day,
Kieron
 
D

DVA_MEKA18

Forgive me but I need to be straight.

Some of the community members presume to know the workflow and the pressure involved in making good quality content. Yet they still ask authors of an unfinished work piece to send it out to a complete stranger on the internet "for private use" or shout about release dates. Now me personally I don't understand this behavior any more than those who choose to steal stuff. (Not saying that its as serious though)

The production period should be respected and supported instead of all the usual pestering and private asks. This is a rising issue that I have had since the more public I go the less people actually are willing to let me work on my own terms. I do this for free on my personal time and the energy I put into it directly corresponds with the end result. I've have had frustrated talks with many authors of different fields and they tend to agree.

To me sending unreleased work to some odd internet person would be as bad as flipping the finger to the actual work and it would endanger the reputation of the release as it is still in Work In Progress state. In this day and age there is this presumption that everyone is special in some way and entitled to do whatever. This is not the fault of the individual since our societies constantly teach us for this thought.

However in the case of an artist or producer doing their work it is not to be rushed or stomped upon. The work is laid out to the public when it is finished, no sooner. Now this is nothing personal but this behavior is as tiring as the other usual Omsi community nonsense and it usually ends up slowing the production process or even stopping it all together in some cases.

All of this is not be taken as an insult to your excitement, I have it as well as an intense burning flame. However you shouldn't let that feeling consume you and it to guide your actions in the internet.

I ask you this: Would you ask a musician for a piece of an unfinished song?

Sincerely, Ratti
--------
I was not sure where the correct place for my rant would be so I laid it in here.
I completely 100% agree with you we have lost some decent developers because people constantly asking is this out yet etc which caused many developers to stop including myself whilst i am still working on projects its alot slower then it used to be but i am glad you made this post hopefully put this point across then the whole can i have beta or is their a download link will hopefully stop
 
D

DVA_MEKA18

You don't have a point here at all. While it may be annoying, people asking for sample products should be a compliment. If people want samples products they are extremely pleased with your work. Also, many release dates on this site are not kept which rightly so can anger people. This thread is ridiculous and I don't see why you made it. If you don't want people complaining about release dates don't include one or don't even tell people that you are producing something, then you won't have any issues.
I think its more the fact that you have no point. While it may be annoying...that's the exact thing we are ranting about. Asking for sample products is in fact a bad thing. This leads to the pestering which has been seen recently and is driving developers away.

People asking for release dates always leads to bad things. Look at London, a release date was announced which lead to mass confusion. If someone doesn't include a release date, there is always many questions about it, so again that point is useless.

That attitude, to me, also provokes people to leave. If every developer who got a tad annoyed stop announcing or releasing work, than the downloads section would be empty.

Also, may I ask why, this sort of pestering and asking for release dates that we so talk about, is banned from many sites? IF it were such a good thing, surely it would be promoted?

As Ratti greatly put it: Would you ask a musician for a piece of an unfinished song?

Good Day,
Kieron
Kieron is right we have lost 2 maybe even more because off the constant can i have beta, is there a download link etc this needs to stop otherwise people are going to stop making good quality content IE look at London has been changed so much since the original release date and for the better i dont mind waiting for a product if the developer like Rhys is putting so much effort into and looking at where he can improve and improving IE The Gemini 2 B5LH adding in the Gemini 3, completly rebuilding the NRM and SRM
 

HJALMAR

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2016
88
You don't have a point here at all.. This thread is ridiculous and I don't see why you made it. If you don't want people complaining about release dates don't include one or don't even tell people that you are producing something, then you won't have any issues.
Well I do still consider my stay here as undecided, my main reason for joining in was to make communication within the London team more easy. But seriously maybe I should leave after London is released and stable. Like you said, if no one knows about my future projects then I wont have to listen to it all.

More than likely the thread will provoke fury at least to a some degree but I don't want to hear about another Omsi community imploding from within. There used to be a flourishing Finnish Omsi & ETS community that collapsed under all the pressure. All of this opposing thought was one of the reasons why. This is why I felt that I needed to express the issue and to give it exposure since even I was new here all the signs were very much familiar to me.
 

Lakitu

Prepare for trouble! Make it double!
Content Control
Jan 1, 1970
738
As I said; don't make an announcement before you have a majority of the work done. Obviously there are downsides, but in this case not many.
Ok then, nobody should share what they are working on or attempt to get feedback because of the veg. Great way to have a community.
 
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whistlehead

Alias Mr Hackenbacker
Staff Team Leader
Forum Moderator
UKDT
Premium Subscriber
Dec 10, 2015
1,379
@SatoshiAaron Speaking personally, I don't think the answer is to encourage people to share their work less because they'll get this kind of response. To me, that comes from the same place as saying the reason for being bullied is not ignoring the bullies, rather than the bullies themselves. What you end up doing is persecuting the creator for posting their project that they have put their time into. As you have not uploaded any content to our forums yourself, I'm also not sure you're in a position to be commenting on how content creators should feel when they are on the receiving end of pestering.

This is a community for people to share and enjoy what they love doing with other people, and telling them not to share what they're doing for fear of pestering defeats the entire point.

Speaking as a member of the moderation team, I feel that this is an important discussion to be had and I have no issue with it being conducted calmly and sensibly. However, as it's one of those things which is quite a sensitive area to some members of the community, I'd like to remind you to keep it calm and sensible, or we will have to do away with the thread - which would be a shame.
 

Cauterize1750

#Duuuval
Oct 24, 2016
191
I've not been here very long, I mostly lurk post occasionally to comment on stuff and keep an eye on progress of upcoming projects, its enjoyable to watch a developer go through the stages to come out with a product, and not always is this out in an open community like this is, and I think its great for developers to showcase their progress and ideas, it leads to feedback and builds a great rapport with the guys who will be eventually the end user, I find you can often tell how well something is going in terms of development and direction from this sort of communication.

I don't release content, I don't plan to as I don't really have the time or skills to do it, but I do feel for the guys who do put all the effort in to make some great stuff (and some of the projects ongoing here are looking amazing) who then get pestered like they have been and its a shame to see people get put off projects or outright leaving the community because of it, as Whistlehead rightly put it, it sort of defeats the point.

Personally I am a patient person and I've got plenty of other stuff to do with my time while projects are ongoing, I think this post is a great as it might help some people who are perhaps a little bit overkeen to understand the point of view, and maybe it will help in the long run so that this community can continue to grow in a positive manner.

Just my two cents.
 

Jacobthebus

Weeeeeeeeeee
Mar 7, 2016
1,047
Here's the upshot; I know I haven't released many files of a higher profile, but I certainly do know about the problems that come with releasing maps, busses and repaints. If it was my choice, I would make a rule against asking for release dates and updates. I think it's just completely wrong, and I think the members who have recently left the community are not doing the wrong thing. I don't have a hump against these forums, and I certainly won't be leaving (nor am I encouraging people to do so) but I think that if people are being pestered like they were, then I can understand why they did what they did. I don't think it is at all fair to ask for beta's or unfinished products. I have done so privately, purely in an attempt to improve them and release them again. Unfortunately, too many problems riddle these maps. And what I certainly don't do is to continue to pester after I've been told not to or after I've got an answer.
"Would you ask a musician for a piece of an unfinished song?"
 

N531 DWM

I like Darts.
Oct 25, 2016
872
Favourite Truck
Scania
Could not disagree with any word of that, the community has never been as top notch as many other community's in Gaming but what i do know is i have been doing repaints since MM2 and for OMSI since it first released and i only started to release repaints since i joined this site, it really bugs me when people take credit for other peoples work also or even just steal it for that matter that is what put me off for so long but the difference is as you say in MY(OUR) free time i can spend 4+ hours on a repaint even if its just a simple First/Arriva/Stagecoach livery yet someone can do a simple one in ten minutes and done...but the reason is for quality, i'd always thought and would of hated to have work i spent 4+ hours on just stolen its not nice at all. Since i have joined this site i have noticed that OMSI does actually have a fairly decent community even though there are some oddballs on here but thats the same everywhere.

Personally when someone is making a Bus/Map it be better to keep it to yourself to save all the dribble and hype and messages etc but thats not how it should be really a author should be allowed to show their progress and creations and not have to worry about all the crap just simple Constructive criticism, praise and thoughts of others its a shame that so many people/authors have started projects and just ditched them because of this community.
 

SatoshiAaron

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2016
220
This thread is virtually a tongue in the b****** of the developers. It is almost like you are going "Hello Developer, I stuck up for you, make me your personal bitch please"
I've always lived by respecting the people who make things you enjoy but don't become a teachers pet for them, that really is sad. I'm a developer, I've been creating Lua related game modifications since 2011 and I always prefer those more who appreciate my work but don't grovel to me more than those who constantly want to be my little followers. You have been at this community for less than a month and you have not created anything in this community so you don't have the right to complain about this problem. I am excluding projects you may have been a part of elsewhere as this is not the point you are making.

You like many others are just another groveling follower.
It actually makes me frustrated to see so many people wanting to be disgusting little teachers pets over people who make models and addons for games.

Now don't get me wrong; I respect the work that people do for this game and I believe it requires much skill and input, they deserve all the praise in the world, but this is just disgusting. I don't see how nobody sees the real issue here. The world has actually gone mad.
 
D

DVA_MEKA18

This thread is virtually a tongue in the b****** of the developers. It is almost like you are going "Hello Developer, I stuck up for you, make me your personal bitch please"
I've always lived by respecting the people who make things you enjoy but don't become a teachers pet for them, that really is sad. I'm a developer, I've been creating Lua related game modifications since 2011 and I always prefer those more who appreciate my work but don't grovel to me more than those who constantly want to be my little followers. You have been at this community for less than a month and you have not created anything in this community so you don't have the right to complain about this problem. I am excluding projects you may have been a part of elsewhere as this is not the point you are making.

You like many others are just another groveling follower.
It actually makes me frustrated to see so many people wanting to be disgusting little teachers pets over people who make models and addons for games.

Now don't get me wrong; I respect the work that people do for this game and I believe it requires much skill and input, they deserve all the praise in the world, but this is just disgusting. I don't see how nobody sees the real issue here. The world has actually gone mad.
What is your problem seriously -_- that is not the case when you have people basically roast you for work you are doing in YOUR OWN TIME then you get feedback like that do you wonder why people dont want to make stuff for this community anymore it is their choice they are taking they own time to make stuff if you were in the postion you would know You would also know how the is this out yet can i have beta when is release date style question really get annoying and cause devs to stop!!
 

SatoshiAaron

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2016
220
What is your problem seriously -_- that is not the case when you have people basically roast you for work you are doing in YOUR OWN TIME then you get feedback like that do you wonder why people dont want to make stuff for this community anymore it is their choice they are taking they own time to make stuff if you were in the postion you would know You would also know how the is this out yet can i have beta when is release date style question really get annoying and cause devs to stop!!
"people basically roast you for work you are doing in YOUR OWN TIME"
No, they don't. This very rarely happens. Look at any complete release and I assure you that if it is good enough most people are saying "Good Job" "Well Done" or giving constructive criticism.

"if you were in the position you would know"
Actually I do know. As I've said, I create modifications and server modules for online games and I know what this is all like. I work a company that produce them.
 
D

DVA_MEKA18

"people basically roast you for work you are doing in YOUR OWN TIME"
No, they don't. This very rarely happens. Look at any complete release and I assure you that if it is good enough most people are saying "Good Job" "Well Done" or giving constructive criticism.

"if you were in the position you would know"
Actually I do know. As I've said, I create modifications and server modules for online games and I know what this is all like. I work a company that produce them.
For the first thing i was referring to what happened to me and have you made anything in Omsi?
 
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HJALMAR

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2016
88
Seriously guys! I don't want anyone to get silenced for having a different stand but you are putting the discussion in jeopardy by lashing out.
 

Gh0st28

Guest
Mar 29, 2016
610
This thread is virtually a tongue in the b****** of the developers. It is almost like you are going "Hello Developer, I stuck up for you, make me your personal bitch please"
I've always lived by respecting the people who make things you enjoy but don't become a teachers pet for them, that really is sad. I'm a developer, I've been creating Lua related game modifications since 2011 and I always prefer those more who appreciate my work but don't grovel to me more than those who constantly want to be my little followers. You have been at this community for less than a month and you have not created anything in this community so you don't have the right to complain about this problem. I am excluding projects you may have been a part of elsewhere as this is not the point you are making.

You like many others are just another groveling follower.
It actually makes me frustrated to see so many people wanting to be disgusting little teachers pets over people who make models and addons for games.

Now don't get me wrong; I respect the work that people do for this game and I believe it requires much skill and input, they deserve all the praise in the world, but this is just disgusting. I don't see how nobody sees the real issue here. The world has actually gone mad.
Mate just calm it FFS. I know it a rant thread but the calm the F down. You are making a point but there is no need to be like that! You "could" be one of those people who makes the community collapse. Dont start taking it out on other people!!
 

Jacobthebus

Weeeeeeeeeee
Mar 7, 2016
1,047
This thread is virtually a tongue in the b****** of the developers. It is almost like you are going "Hello Developer, I stuck up for you, make me your personal bitch please"
I've always lived by respecting the people who make things you enjoy but don't become a teachers pet for them, that really is sad. I'm a developer, I've been creating Lua related game modifications since 2011 and I always prefer those more who appreciate my work but don't grovel to me more than those who constantly want to be my little followers. You have been at this community for less than a month and you have not created anything in this community so you don't have the right to complain about this problem. I am excluding projects you may have been a part of elsewhere as this is not the point you are making.

You like many others are just another groveling follower.
It actually makes me frustrated to see so many people wanting to be disgusting little teachers pets over people who make models and addons for games.

Now don't get me wrong; I respect the work that people do for this game and I believe it requires much skill and input, they deserve all the praise in the world, but this is just disgusting. I don't see how nobody sees the real issue here. The world has actually gone mad.
Can I please have one of your unfinished modifications then? @HJALMAR has created a few great modifications, and a greatly appreciate his work, and I'm sure that most people appreciate his contributions to the community. As it appears, you've contributed very little to the community, apart from being incredible hostile and rude to other members. While you are entitled to your own opinion, you have ABSOLUTELY NO right to completely disregard those of other people. I feel as though you're fighting a battle that your currently losing. If I was you, I'd leave it here.
 
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