London Buses (not a debate) (1 Viewer)

Would it be a good idea for TFL to let buses be ran by one massive operator?


  • Total voters
    92

LT586

Living in the editor
1,123
1,289
I just think all public services should be in public hands, or operators hands which serve the public, Or if you have a car, better still because a new car is a little more than a monthly pass in London. I changed to a car because of Covid, no need for facemask in my own transport and I get to where I'm going in less time. So I think there's not much competition now with cars being so cheap due to Covid, save yourself a ton and get a motor and move out of London, living elsewhere is damn cheaper than trying to keep up with the jones'
 

Advertisement

trainsboy335

Member
15
12
I am not a London-er myself but I honestly think it would be beneficial to run as one big operator with divisions by location instead of its current form. I'm from the US and all of our major cities use one public transit entity and usually have divisions within it to better serve specific areas. Take San Diego, MTS runs all of it but has four divisions that it runs buses in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thegamer7893

BKG93

BKG Studios
86
430
well, it is not like that, TFL makes no profit per-say any profit goes back into the network.

They have had a big deficit for while and needed to fix that witch the current mayor and TFL have really improved (by 75% iirc) that situation pre-COVID, now we are in a situation where cutting costs is a must to keep the lights on. I am personally surprised we have a network that even with COVID, drop-in usage & the gov's vendetta against the mayor of London we have kept a decently operating service and that's not done by people "lining their pockets with cash" so to speak.
I must point out, since Khans entry as mayor, that the deficit has not improved by 75%, in fact its generally got worse. The bosses have been lining their pockets with cash, see this article for a better explanation, but this key section stands out:
1605375221546.png

Admittedly its from Shaun Bailey's point of view, so take it with a pinch of salt, but the numbers are still correct.

Both Khan and the government have vendettas against each other which a lot of the time overtakes what actually needs to be done but that's politicians for you. But all I can say is I don't know of a single person who actually enjoys Khan as mayor, and he certainly won't get in for another term. After all, a legacy of missing cash and out of control knife crime isn't going to attract many fans.


Also out of curious, (with a justifiable reason) why have 50% of the votes said no to wanting buses being controlled by one operator?
As for this, I'm not saying the current system is perfect, far from it, but running the services under one operator (presumably TfL/government) is destined to collapse. There isn't the money reserves needed for that, I think the money private companies invest is sometimes missed.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: thegamer7893

thegamer7893

Well-Known Member
499
400
I must point out, since Khans entry as mayor, that the deficit has not improved by 75%, in fact its generally got worse. The bosses have been lining their pockets with cash, see this article for a better explanation, but this key section stands out:
View attachment 74337
Admittedly its from Shaun Bailey's point of view, so take it with a pinch of salt, but the numbers are still correct.

Both Khan and the government have vendettas against each other which a lot of the time overtakes what actually needs to be done but that's politicians for you. But all I can say is I don't know of a single person who actually enjoys Khan as mayor, and he certainly won't get in for another term. After all, a legacy of missing cash and out of control knife crime isn't going to attract many fans.
Now this is something which gets me mad, how can in a matter of 4 years can the senior management team/figures/bosses in TFL manage to get an increase of £10 million.... Unless I'm reading something wrong
As for this, I'm not saying the current system is perfect, far from it, but running the services under one operator (presumably TfL/government) is destined to collapse. There isn't the money reserves needed for that, I think the money private companies invest is sometimes missed.
Just curious to know, how does this somehow work in Birmingham with National Express being the most dominant operators whilst there are smaller companies and a few big ones (Diamond, First and Arriva)
 

BKG93

BKG Studios
86
430
Now this is something which gets me mad, how can in a matter of 4 years can the senior management team/figures/bosses in TFL manage to get an increase of £10 million.... Unless I'm reading something wrong

Just curious to know, how does this somehow work in Birmingham with National Express being the most dominant operators whilst there are smaller companies and a few big ones (Diamond, First and Arriva)
I think you need to take into account size here. Go Ahead London alone, operate nearly double the amount of vehicles NXWM do, let alone the whole of London. NXWM is not at all a comparison to a single-operator London.
 

Ddogb

[CU] - JTR
617
3,467
I must point out, since Khans entry as mayor, that the deficit has not improved by 75%, in fact its generally got worse. The bosses have been lining their pockets with cash, see this article for a better explanation, but this key section stands out:
View attachment 74337
Admittedly its from Shaun Bailey's point of view, so take it with a pinch of salt, but the numbers are still correct.

Both Khan and the government have vendettas against each other which a lot of the time overtakes what actually needs to be done but that's politicians for you. But all I can say is I don't know of a single person who actually enjoys Khan as mayor, and he certainly won't get in for another term. After all, a legacy of missing cash and out of control knife crime isn't going to attract many fans.



As for this, I'm not saying the current system is perfect, far from it, but running the services under one operator (presumably TfL/government) is destined to collapse. There isn't the money reserves needed for that, I think the money private companies invest is sometimes missed.
I personally think Khan is a descent mayor, yes he's legacy isn't going to go down in history but I don't think the knife crime is on his shoulders, police cuts, lack of early identification & support for kids most likely to be dragged into gangs ect & CPS falling in way to many cases are the biggest things to blame and thats not all on Khan. He ant perfect no politician is but he a dam site better than the previous one.

I do not trust Shaun Bailey in the slightest so I personally don't trust that article, but nor can you the 75% clam from the mayor, but from my point of view since Khan TFL has slightly improved and the way he stuck up for the kids/freedom pass I do stand by him atm... whether that last we will see and the same goes for a second term but I agree it unlikely he will be given it.
 

Networker88

Member
10
14
Now this is something which gets me mad, how can in a matter of 4 years can the senior management team/figures/bosses in TFL manage to get an increase of £10 million.... Unless I'm reading something wrong

Just curious to know, how does this somehow work in Birmingham with National Express being the most dominant operators whilst there are smaller companies and a few big ones (Diamond, First and Arriva)
The situation you've described in Birmingham (as the case in the rest of the UK except for London) is deregulation. Essentially, any company with an operating licence can decide to run routes wherever they like, and they take on the free market commercial risk of doing so. This has been the case since 1986, and if there is the commercial case to run buses in a particular area, then operators will stay as well as move in. This would explain why large cities (such as Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool) have several operators serving them. On the flip side, there are other areas (the area of West Surrey around Staines and Woking is one example) where running services is not commercially attractive at all and operators end up withdrawing completely from the area after heavy losses.

Essentially, bus services in London are all run by Transport for London, its simply the case that they outsource the staffing and provision of vehicles to private operators. The competitive process for bidding for these routes does keep the tender prices down, unless one or some of the bidders has a poor performance record, its generally 'lowest bid wins'. I believe the lack of huge profits from running services in this fashion led to Stagecoach leaving London in 2006 (the came back 4 years later) as well as First Group pulling out for good a few years back. I really cannot see how giving it all to one operator to run everything would either save money in the long term and work in practice.

Going to Transport for London's finances, it's not just been since Sadiq Khan got elected that their finances took a tumble, this has been going on for years now. It would seem to me that the organisations primary role is to be used as a political football rather than running a decent transport network whilst keeping their budget in control. They are able to spend vast amounts of money on various vanity schemes designed to keep incumbent mayors in office, but don't seem to able to think about where the money comes from.

They do have a few revenue issues going against them; in 2014 they lost a £700m annual grant from the Department of Transport, and it was also recently revealed that none of the estimated £500m a year raised from London based vehicle owners in VED (aka road tax) goes to TFL (TFL also maintains the trunk roads in London, where as the Highways Agency has responsibility outside the capital). That's on central government, and I would like to think that if I'm taxing my car to keep it on the road, some of the money raised from that actually goes to those who's job it is to fix it.

But more politically motivated vanity schemes have also not helped; the Emirates Air Line, the New Routemaster buses, the Santander Cycle Hire scheme, the endless delays to getting Crossrail open, the Hopper fare, the fares freeze, free travel for under 18s and over 60s are amongst many of the things where TFL has been happy to spend money and forget to raise it. Note that not all of these are the current mayor's fault, previous occupants of the job can take the credit/blame for many of these schemes.

Ultimately it will take an act of political 'bravery' to get TFL back to a budget surplus, mainly ensuring that those who use services make a proper contribution to the financial costs of running said services. I personally cannot stand Sadiq Khan, but I doubt Shaun Bailey would do any better. His recent criticisms of Khan and his 'solutions' show that he hasn't got a clue how to run TFL himself. Maybe it would be better in the long run to go back to how it was pre-2000; a central government quango (like Network Rail is now) with the job of effectively running services whilst keeping costs down and not being used to further political careers.
 

BKG93

BKG Studios
86
430
But more politically motivated vanity schemes have also not helped; the Emirates Air Line, the New Routemaster buses, the Santander Cycle Hire scheme, the endless delays to getting Crossrail open, the Hopper fare, the fares freeze, free travel for under 18s and over 60s are amongst many of the things where TFL has been happy to spend money and forget to raise it. Note that not all of these are the current mayor's fault, previous occupants of the job can take the credit/blame for many of these schemes.

Ultimately it will take an act of political 'bravery' to get TFL back to a budget surplus, mainly ensuring that those who use services make a proper contribution to the financial costs of running said services. I personally cannot stand Sadiq Khan, but I doubt Shaun Bailey would do any better. His recent criticisms of Khan and his 'solutions' show that he hasn't got a clue how to run TFL himself. Maybe it would be better in the long run to go back to how it was pre-2000; a central government quango (like Network Rail is now) with the job of effectively running services whilst keeping costs down and not being used to further political careers.
I agree with a lot of that, London and TfL is used as a political football. As you can tell from previous comments I'm no fan of Khan either, but I have little faith in the other candidates as well. The Air-Line is in the complete wrong place, and doesn't really serve a great deal of people. The NRMs do provide London with an image that's globally recognised, albeit they are overpriced for what they are. I think I'll retire before Crossrail actually comes around lol.

The hopper fare, fares freeze, free travel for over 60s and free under 18s travel during school hours, is very much needed though. I think there is better ways to increase revenue before these should be attacked. The cycle hire as well is a decent scheme in fairness, with a lot of other cities now adopting similar schemes so I'd excuse that one as well.

@Ddogb btw, found a neutral article into TfLs financial management, and it does make it clear, that all 3 London mayors have been equally to blame (or not to blame depending how you view it). I advise to read the article, the numbers can be misleading if you don't get the context xD Just thought you might be interested in a neutral point of view, as opposed to that tory one.
The arguments over TfL debt numbers
 
Last edited:

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
  2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
  5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
  6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  7. This thread is locked.

Users who are viewing this thread