London Buses (not a debate) (3 Viewers)

Would it be a good idea for TFL to let buses be ran by one massive operator?


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Ddogb

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There will be people what are not be happy about this, but what are we supposed to do if there is millions lost yearly to fare dodgers?

Bendy buses are long bois but I'd probably have them install rear door and have one on the tail for turning purposes

Cardiff still have bendy buses the last time I checked



As mentioned above, people will not be happy with it but how are we meant to bring down the millions lost to fare dodging?
TBH face recension cam won't do anything, if you get that passed the mass backlash (very doubtful) what's to stop someone covering their face to get past the cam. It's a pointless thing to have. End of the day it will always be a problem, the only thing to stop it would be conductors and that's not gonna happen.

Yes, it's a big issue but buses being operated by one person (the driver) it is inevitable a minority will tack advantage of that and jump on the back, happens on normal DD buses all the time. it is not going to stop no matter the type of camera or system you put in place
 
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Hullian111

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As mentioned above, people will not be happy with it but how are we meant to bring down the millions lost to fare dodging?
Smacks of the South Wales Police case, which was very recently ruled unlawful and a breach of the European Convention on Human Rights:
Deputy Chief Constable Richard Lewis said: “This new app means that, with a single photo, officers can easily and quickly answer the question of ‘Are you really the person we are looking for?’ When dealing with a person of interest during their patrols in our communities, officers will be able to access instant, actionable data, allowing to them to identify whether the person stopped is, or is not, the person they need to speak to, without having to return to a police station.
I wouldn't think TfL would do the same shady acts that South Wales Police supposedly did, but the problem really ramps up when you hand over that information to the Metropolitan Police. If we're going to go into the right of privacy for millions of London commuters, then I'm done with this thread, frankly.
 

Ddogb

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There will be people what are not be happy about this, but what are we supposed to do if there is millions lost yearly to fare dodgers?

Bendy buses are long bois but I'd probably have them install rear door and have one on the tail for turning purposes

Cardiff still have bendy buses the last time I checked



As mentioned above, people will not be happy with it but how are we meant to bring down the millions lost to fare dodging?
TBH face recension cam won't do anything, if you get that passed the mass backlash (very doubtful) what's to stop someone covering their face to get past the cam. It's a pointless thing to have. End of the day it will always be a problem, the only thing to stop it would be conductors and that's not gonna happen.

Yes, it's a big issue but buses being operated by one person (the driver) it is inevitable a minority will tack advantage of that and jump on the back, happens on normal DD buses all the time. its not going to stop no matter the type of camera or system you put in place
 
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FirstEnviro

Developer of the Studio Polygon [Redacted]
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There will be people what are not be happy about this, but what are we supposed to do if there is millions lost yearly to fare dodgers?

Bendy buses are long bois but I'd probably have them install rear door and have one on the tail for turning purposes

Cardiff still have bendy buses the last time I checked



As mentioned above, people will not be happy with it but how are we meant to bring down the millions lost to fare dodging?
And then the millions lost because passengers will no longer travel on buses which are watching them as they board and are decoding their facial information. There's the question of storing this data, computing this data and holding a database with all this data - which costs a LOT of money.

Then with people moving away from buses, traffic increases.
Ethical needs to be balanced with economy. You cannot force some wrongly ethical things upon people.
 
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thegamer7893

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TBH face recension cam won't do anything, if you get that passed the mass backlash (very doubtful) what's to stop someone covering their face to get past the cam. It's a pointless thing to have. End of the day it will always be a problem, the only thing to stop it would be conductors and that's not gonna happen.

Yes, it's a big issue but buses being operated by one person (the driver) it is inevitable a minority will tack advantage of that and jump on the back, happens on normal DD buses all the time. it is not going to stop no matter the type of camera or system you put in place

I agree cos people will just wear masks all the time just to protect their ID. Really instead of us wanting people to feel tracked, we should want people to feel free as possible

Smacks of the South Wales Police case, which was very recently ruled unlawful and a breach of the European Convention on Human Rights:

I wouldn't think TfL would do the same shady acts that South Wales Police supposedly did, but the problem really ramps up when you hand over that information to the Metropolitan Police. If we're going to go into the right of privacy for millions of London commuters, then I'm done with this thread, frankly.

As mentioned above, we should be trying to make people feel as safe as possible whilst being on public transport as opposed to feeling tracked

TBH face recension cam won't do anything, if you get that passed the mass backlash (very doubtful) what's to stop someone covering their face to get past the cam. It's a pointless thing to have. End of the day it will always be a problem, the only thing to stop it would be conductors and that's not gonna happen.

Yes, it's a big issue but buses being operated by one person (the driver) it is inevitable a minority will tack advantage of that and jump on the back, happens on normal DD buses all the time. its not going to stop no matter the type of camera or system you put in place

A few years ago funnily enough, I saw someone hop on the middle door of the Routemaster and didn't touch his oyster card for the whole of his journey.

It just makes no sense to add in facial ID cos all it will do is track people in their every move whilst being on public transport and make them feel unsafe.

And then the millions lost because passengers will no longer travel on buses which are watching them as they board and are decoding their facial information. There's the question of storing this data, computing this data and holding a database with all this data - which costs a LOT of money.

Then with people moving away from buses, traffic increases.
Ethical needs to be balanced with economy. You cannot force some wrongly ethical things upon people.

As mentioned in the first quote that I responded to - We should be making people feel safe as possible whilst on public transport as opposed to it being a tracking zone for peoples every move

Moving back on topic though - What do you guys think should happen to London's buses if a restructuring was to take place?
 

BKG93

BKG Studios
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I'd do a Berlin with them and make the rear 2 doors exit only and add on restrictions on how and where they can be operated

However the issue around them (the Citaro's G's) catching fire is an issue which is very concerning. However, was the source of the issue ever found?



I've grown to dislike the routemasters as they are not really "hybrid" buses as they were meant to be and they have alot of other major issues (i.e. AC system not working). Imo, I think that really are just stylish regular buses and in my world, I would rather spend millions of pounds sorting out the issues with the bendy Citaro's as opposed to buying buses which will eventually turned into stylish regular buses

@Hullian111 You don't say! 🤣



The routemasters are just stylish regular buses imo because their 3 door usage was cut due to the fare dodgers which is a shame

However over time, I've grown to dislike them more cos they are not really "hybrid" buses as they were meant to be on intro and the fact that the air conditioning doesn't work makes the buses not the best for summer and even though there are openable windows, that shouldn't be an excuse for having an AC system which doesn't function
The NRMs are hybrid buses. They operate under electric power at low speeds as long as their is sufficient battery charge as do every other hybrid bus. As for AC, its not broken, they simply don't have it in favour of an air cooling system which is honestly terrible. Opening windows were only an afterthought too.

They still use all 3 doors, with the front door being for boarding and the rear 2 for exiting, which is exactly what you've suggested for the bendies yet on the NRMs you say this is a shame but on bendies its a 'solution' to fare dodgers? As much as it pains me to say it, the bendies began to have so many issues in London they weren't the right choice. Having been commuting to the Victoria area of London for a number of years, its bad enough for the 11m coaches to get around the streets in places, mainly due to other road vehicles and pedestrians poorly judging tail swing, so to imagine that bendies would still be running is just a disaster waiting to happen. Thats not to mention the other problems they have.

While NRMs are just an overpriced, glorified Gemini 3, they give London a recognisable image throughout the world and something a bit different...and a hell of a lot more practical to bendies. There could be an argument to say they could've just ordered 'normal' buses which I would have to agree with but bendies not so much.

There will be people what are not be happy about this, but what are we supposed to do if there is millions lost yearly to fare dodgers?

Bendy buses are long bois but I'd probably have them install rear door and have one on the tail for turning purposes

Cardiff still have bendy buses the last time I checked



As mentioned above, people will not be happy with it but how are we meant to bring down the millions lost to fare dodging?
As for the money lost to fare dodgers its not about everyone paying their fare, its about overall economic impacts of the fare dodging. If it will cost more money to implement deterrent and detection, such as camera systems, ticket inspectors and such compared to the money lost, they just take the hit by choice, This is kind of what happens at the moment, the conductors on NRMs were withdrawn because the cost to employ people to do the job was more than the fares they received from people being forced to pay, and more than the sentimental value of the platform was worth.

The New Routemaster buses operate on this setup of boarding at the front door and exiting at the rear two doors so no reason why it wouldn't work with a bendy bus.
They use this system on the NRMs, doesn't mean it entirely works. I've seen people fare evade on single door buses in London and manage to get away with it, usually in school time runs, let alone on the 3 door buses xD
 

LazyGuy222

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It just makes no sense to add in facial ID cos all it will do is track people in their every move whilst being on public transport and make them feel unsafe.
You just stated that they should add facial recognition, then you say that it shouldn't happen.
If you are going to argue something, keep a sustained line of argument.

As per what everyone else is saying, the repercussions of that would be greater than what was and currently is being faced with fare dodging.
It isn't ethical and would seriously ignore peoples rights.
TfL is not particularly doing much wrong I think. The services are running, people are using them and, before covid-19 anyway, were making a profit, and they also have lower fares than probably most places across the country. 1.50 for any services within an hour is brilliant, and a daily cap of 4.50 with the availability of a very large network of buses, trains, underground services and trams, as well as certain riverboat services, is beyond fantastic.
There isn't much point changing a system which more or less works.
 

thegamer7893

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Response to @BKG93

When I said how the Citaro's could be operated, the way the Routemasters are operated now went over my head and I can only apologise for such madness.

However, bendy buses would ideally be used on routes where there are height restrictions but have a high number of passengers using the route every day.

Response to @LazyGuy222

That was after me actually realising the issues around facial recognition when it was first suggested so again I can only apologise.

However, the issue around fare dodging is that we can't catch everyone and even with CCTV installed, we either will sometimes catch the wrong people or people will completely ignore the fact that there is CCTV anyway so it's really a tied hands situation when it comes to fare dodging.

Another thing though is that couldn't the bendy vehicles have restrictions layed onto them and to make sure that they are fit for work and also to have normal/other bendy buses on standby incase of an issue (i.e. the common fire)

In terms of fares, the £1.50 cap only applies to unlimited bus travel within an hour.
 
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BKG93

BKG Studios
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You just stated that they should add facial recognition, then you say that it shouldn't happen.
If you are going to argue something, keep a sustained line of argument.

As per what everyone else is saying, the repercussions of that would be greater than what was and currently is being faced with fare dodging.
It isn't ethical and would seriously ignore peoples rights.
TfL is not particularly doing much wrong I think. The services are running, people are using them and, before covid-19 anyway, were making a profit, and they also have lower fares than probably most places across the country. 1.50 for any services within an hour is brilliant, and a daily cap of 4.50 with the availability of a very large network of buses, trains, underground services and trams, as well as certain riverboat services, is beyond fantastic.
There isn't much point changing a system which more or less works.
Don't be fooled by Covid, TfL has been at the hands of poor financial management, and a decline in passenger numbers (and hence revenue) for a number of years now. TfL have not made a yearly profit since 2017, Covid was just the final tipping point (or excuse depending on how you look at it).

I'm also not sure where you've got the cap from, its £4.40 if you only use buses. The second you tap in on a train/tube, the cap increases, as well as depending on what zone you are. The average cap most people will hit is around the £10-£13 mark (the riverboat services there is no cap).
The £1.50 hopper fare only counts on buses/trams, it doesn't count on any other type of service.

As for changing a system that works...I think a fair few Londoners have already said in this thread that it isn't entirely working.
 

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LazyGuy222

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Don't be fooled by Covid, TfL has been at the hands of poor financial management, and a decline in passenger numbers (and hence revenue) for a number of years now. TfL have not made a yearly profit since 2017, Covid was just the final tipping point (or excuse depending on how you look at it).

I'm also not sure where you've got the cap from, its £4.40 if you only use buses. The second you tap in on a train/tube, the cap increases, as well as depending on what zone you are. The average cap most people will hit is around the £10-£13 mark (the riverboat services there is no cap).
The £1.50 hopper fare only counts on buses/trams, it doesn't count on any other type of service.

As for changing a system that works...I think a fair few Londoners have already said in this thread that it isn't entirely working.
You are very right, the page I was actually looking at was only for buses and trams, rather than for the tube and rail services also, apologies.
In terms of the profits, I actually wasn’t aware about that, that is incredibly bad.
My point about keeping something that works is therefore wrong, seeing as it clearly doesn’t work, especially if TfL will run out of money very shortly.
 
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BKG93

BKG Studios
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You are very right, the page I was actually looking at was only for buses and trams, rather than for the tube and rail services also, apologies.
In terms of the profits, I actually wasn’t aware about that, that is incredibly bad.
My point about keeping something that works is therefore wrong, seeing as it clearly doesn’t work, especially if TfL will run out of money very shortly.
In fairness your point still stands around the pricing, it is still very cheap to get around in London, and thats something I think Londoners in general take for granted. Especially the free travel/cheap trains zip card for under 16s.
 
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North London Buses

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In fairness your point still stands around the pricing, it is still very cheap to get around in London, and thats something I think Londoners in general take for granted. Especially the free travel/cheap trains zip card for under 16s.
I dont think they should remove free travel for under 16s and as scummy as that sounds people who dont live in london the cost of living is higher than outside london so I think its stupid of TFL because dont forget some of their money troubles are their fault.
Them closing the front exits dont protect drivers and on buses like Routemasters and SINGLE DOOR BUSES they removed oyster payments.
Now someone please tell me how that makes sense please as now in times like this theyre complaining about money trouble when it was their poor management which got them in as big of a financial trouble that they have got into.
 

Ddogb

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I dont think they should remove free travel for under 16s and as scummy as that sounds people who dont live in london the cost of living is higher than outside london so I think its stupid of TFL because dont forget some of their money troubles are their fault.
Them closing the front exits dont protect drivers and on buses like Routemasters and SINGLE DOOR BUSES they removed oyster payments.
Now someone please tell me how that makes sense please as now in times like this theyre complaining about money trouble when it was their poor management which got them in as big of a financial trouble that they have got into.
TFL don't want to get rid of the Zip or Freedom cards, the government is trying to force them to. Same as the door situation they were following gov advice and thought I disagree with the single door thing I understand the reason behind it.

TFL has now been threatened that if the mayor of London dose not agree to

  • -Scrap the Zip & 60+
  • Up fears higher than inflation
  • Extend the congestion charge to the north and south circular
  • And add an new tax to pay for TFL

The gov will take control of the network, the mayor of London fully disagrees with what is being asked but gets blamed for it. He ant perfect but TFL falling is not on his shoulders
 

szpHD

Ur going AE!!!
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TFL don't want to get rid of the Zip or Freedom cards, the government is trying to force them to. Same as the door situation they were following gov advice and thought I disagree with the single door thing I understand the reason behind it.

TFL has now been threatened that if the mayor of London dose not agree to

  • -Scrap the Zip & 60+
  • Up fears higher than inflation
  • Extend the congestion charge to the north and south circular
  • And add an new tax to pay for TFL

The gov will take control of the network, the mayor of London fully disagrees with what is being asked but gets blamed for it. He ant perfect but TFL falling is not on his shoulders
So their options are to either let the goverment do what they want with TFL, or they let the governmet do what they want with TFL I guess. How comes they can't source another funding extension but could afford to pay a contract for a 'ferry' company without any assets? Seems like selective corruption again 😑
 

Ddogb

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Whats confusing @thegamer7893
Not like the government is makeing the situation any more complicated 😆

Its a messed up situation here atm, end of the day Boris mess up TFL when he was mayor and he is continuing to now and putting the blame on the current mayor. Its is definitely gonna be an interesting few months ahead to see what happens but I for one stand with Sadiq Khan.
 
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FirstEnviro

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Zip should be scrapped. It costs too much money, don’t forget a lot of the load is school children. There’s no reason for children to get free travel, discounted maybe, but not free.
The zip card I have been against for a while, and I’m glad something is being done about it.
no doubt most people on this thread are eligible for it, so I’m gonna get an ass whopping probably
 

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thegamer7893

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@FirstEnviro Just out of curiosity, as much as I benefitted from a Zip card when I was aged 11-15 (now 16), why do you think that they should be scrapped and how would low income families be able to afford bus travel for their kids if bus travel wasn't free? Just curious tbh

@LazyGuy222 Am I not allowed to change my views on something after a while? Is that not allowed or something?
 
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HD Transport

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@FirstEnviro Just out of curiosity, as much as I benefitted from a Zip card when I was aged 11-15 (now 16), why do you think that they should be scrapped and how would low income families be able to afford bus travel for their kids if bus travel wasn't free? Just curious tbh
It costs too much money, don’t forget a lot of the load is school children. There’s no reason for children to get free travel, discounted maybe, but not free.

Unrelated: Would have loved free travel here but sadly private operators only means nope. A lot of things London's Transport has which people take for granted would be wanted and welcome everywhere else in the UK.
 
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LazyGuy222

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Zip should be scrapped. It costs too much money, don’t forget a lot of the load is school children. There’s no reason for children to get free travel, discounted maybe, but not free.
The zip card I have been against for a while, and I’m glad something is being done about it.
no doubt most people on this thread are eligible for it, so I’m gonna get an ass whopping probably
The zip Oyster card only gives free travel on buses and trams.
You get 50% off riverboat services and national rail services, as well as child rates on the underground and overground, so you do still have to pay.
 
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