London Buses (not a debate) (2 Viewers)

Would it be a good idea for TFL to let buses be ran by one massive operator?


  • Total voters
    67

LT586

Living in the editor
1,102
1,261
I think what’s misunderstood is how London is operated; now if you know anything about what the privatisation did for buses. Yes in many ways improved the operation, there is a penalty now to operators for poor performance. A garage I was at, the GM was close to facing the Traffic Commissioner, the comparison to BVG is that its state run; similar but not the same as Lothian but similar. TfL can only impose the contractual audit to shake up the garages as it were. It’s not just about cost, it’s about necessity as well.

It doesn’t matter if passengers are on the bus or not they get paid per mile to operate a route, an example is route 7, it’s 4.50 a mile; factor in mechanical mileage loss, passenger taken ill, driver error, self curtailment... all these things TfL use to monitor but the issue with TfL is that it doesn’t have enough money to sustain itself due to the working from home.

It’s as simple as that really. There’s a lot of factors to operating a 5 year contract, basically it’s down to a team effort; Drivers being the main stay. They already cut costs by operating it one man, now it’s down to time; traffic is a major problem in any city but it’s the reason many buses are cut short or withdrawn.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thegamer7893

Advertisement

GalWhv69

Veteran Member
401
564
I think what’s misunderstood is how London is operated; now if you know anything about what the privatisation did for buses. Yes in many ways improved the operation, there is a penalty now to operators for poor performance. A garage I was at, the GM was close to facing the Traffic Commissioner, the comparison to BVG is that its state run; similar but not the same as Lothian but similar. TfL can only impose the contractual audit to shake up the garages as it were. It’s not just about cost, it’s about necessity as well.

It doesn’t matter if passengers are on the bus or not they get paid per mile to operate a route, an example is route 7, it’s 4.50 a mile; factor in mechanical mileage loss, passenger taken ill, driver error, self curtailment... all these things TfL use to monitor but the issue with TfL is that it doesn’t have enough money to sustain itself due to the working from home.

It’s as simple as that really. There’s a lot of factors to operating a 5 year contract, basically it’s down to a team effort; Drivers being the main stay. They already cut costs by operating it one man, now it’s down to time; traffic is a major problem in any city but it’s the reason many buses are cut short or withdrawn.
Isn't self curtailment an instant dismissal by the operating company?
 

thegamer7893

Well-Known Member
418
277
I'd love to know how 1 bus removes 100+ cars off the road, when a DD at full capacity takes between 70-90 people and thats not including anyone who came with someone else, as well as the fact that not every bus is crammed full xD Although having 90 on a bus is a thing of the past at present.

What I mean is that 90 people being on a bus could potentially take off 90 cars off the road as one person on a bus (travelling on their own) accounts for one person possibly driving to their destination as opposed to taking the bus
 

FirstEnviro

Developer of the Studio Polygon [Redacted]
Studio Polygon
969
4,039
Give it 15 years and hopefully I'll be the person who runs TFL

But seriously though, how can the management team at TFL be able to happily go to work every day knowing that they have a malfunctioning transport system which needs fixing

Its like they cant be bothered to do anything about it or certain people want to do something about it but they can't for whatever reason

Another thing as well, how the f**k are they letting private transport get so popular. The worse thing about them is that the cars used by the private transport companies are causing traffic in the centre of the city which leads to pollution. The simple fact is that ONE bus removes 100 cars off the road and imagine every bus being full.... That's 100+ cars off the road and less traffic and pollution all because of ONE bus....

TBH, I'd rather have inexperienced people who know about transport managing TFL as opposed to businessmen/women who are in it for the p (money)
I don’t think you understand how complex running all these buses in the largest city in the UK really is. Don’t forget TfL is NOT profitable, so it’s hardly about the money.
And it’s not just buses TfL do...

How would you solve it - what would you do differently to what they’re doing at the moment?
 

North London Buses

Bus Enthusiast based in North London.
294
178
What I mean is that 90 people being on a bus could potentially take off 90 cars off the road as one person on a bus (travelling on their own) accounts for one person possibly driving to their destination as opposed to taking the bus
That makes absolutely no sense people can still own a car and just not drive if they cant be asked or if they dont want to pay for the congestion charge also since when can a bus hold 90 people.
 
  • Confused
Reactions: thegamer7893

HD Transport

Veteran Member
1,180
2,270
Now I don’t live in London so don’t know much about how it’s run but clearly i’m not the only one...
Give it 15 years and hopefully I'll be the person who runs TFL

But seriously though, how can the management team at TFL be able to happily go to work every day knowing that they have a malfunctioning transport system which needs fixing

Its like they cant be bothered to do anything about it or certain people want to do something about it but they can't for whatever reason

Another thing as well, how the f**k are they letting private transport get so popular. The worse thing about them is that the cars used by the private transport companies are causing traffic in the centre of the city which leads to pollution. The simple fact is that ONE bus removes 100 cars off the road and imagine every bus being full.... That's 100+ cars off the road and less traffic and pollution all because of ONE bus....

TBH, I'd rather have inexperienced people who know about transport managing TFL as opposed to businessmen/women who are in it for the p (money)

Inspirational people will say follow your dreams...I’m realistic, there is no chance so I’d suggest working to something else

Second to last paragraph; Do you really think Stagecoach or Arriva are driving round London for the sake of it because they’re “private operators”.
One bus does not remove 100 cars off the road, distancing aside even one of our XLBs fully loaded won’t because not everyone who takes the bus can drive anyway


I don’t want to be seen as one of those people but please think about things before you type.
 

thegamer7893

Well-Known Member
418
277
I don’t think you understand how complex running all these buses in the largest city in the UK really is. Don’t forget TfL is NOT profitable, so it’s hardly about the money.
And it’s not just buses TfL do...

How would you solve it - what would you do differently to what they’re doing at the moment?

Disclaimer: not all the things I would do are mentioned below

For a start - As much as people would not like to see this happen, I would give all the routes to a single operator whilst ending the contacting process as imo, it seams like a process which just f--ks over operators (even if certain issues aren't their fault (i.e. the constant roadworks in Enfield (as mentioned by @LT586))).

Then, I would split the bus operations so that each area can be specifically managed whilst still been monitored and controlled by central management. At the same time, I would introduce express routes to provide commuters with direct (and somewhat) quick links into the centre of London.

Thirdly, I would try and re-introduce Greenline services to the home counties as a way of trying to compete with rail services. The idea behind these bus services would be Intercity bus services that run from centre of London and will go to major towns/cities in the Home Counties (excluding Sussex (and possibly some others)). This may not be a good idea but since train services are only getting more expensive and worse, I think that now is a good time to capitalise on those issues and create healthy competition to the rail services.

If you say so...

Who says you cant have aspirations?
 
  • Like
Reactions: LT586

LazyGuy222

Roblox Name:CS7C3D
1,012
679
Disclaimer: not all the things I would do are mentioned below

For a start - As much as people would not like to see this happen, I would give all the routes to a single operator whilst ending the contacting process as imo, it seams like a process which just f--ks over operators (even if certain issues aren't their fault (i.e. the constant roadworks in Enfield (as mentioned by @LT586))).

Then, I would split the bus operations so that each area can be specifically managed whilst still been monitored and controlled by central management. At the same time, I would introduce express routes to provide commuters with direct (and somewhat) quick links into the centre of London.

Thirdly, I would try and re-introduce Greenline services to the home counties as a way of trying to compete with rail services. The idea behind these bus services would be Intercity bus services that run from centre of London and will go to major towns/cities in the Home Counties (excluding Sussex (and possibly some others)). This may not be a good idea but since train services are only getting more expensive and worse, I think that now is a good time to capitalise on those issues and create healthy competition to the rail services.



Who says you cant have aspirations?
Nobody says you can't have aspirations, but make them realistic.
 

Advertisement

LT586

Living in the editor
1,102
1,261
TfL aren’t the problem, it’s the decisions made towards the end of the 80s to tie in with the rest of the country, the break up of the National Bus Company brought about the competition, the Conservatives believed that competition would improve services. In some ways it has, but it took London a long time to get it right. Garages were still doing what they like until iBus arrived (the system doesn’t just play announcements) TfL is non profit as it’s tax payers who fund it, TfL doesn’t operate routes; not one, every facet of their existence is sub contracted out.

The only thing TfL run is the London Underground. They can only regulate so operators can’t set their own fares, but they can penalise. TfL seem to only have school children in mind, but in London they travel for free; when I was in secondary school 2000-2005 we had a pass that was only for the zone the school was in. Not a zip oyster (thank Ken Livingston & Gordon Brown fi dat)

Beside the point; TfL if they fell under, I doubt the operators would stick around as a lot of them are getting tired of trying to operate in such poor conditions. TfL don’t know what they’re doing, as I said above they only care about school kids not us who work and pay through our noses to travel.

I would rather the money be used to support those who are self employed and these greedy bus operators actually spend the money and get better facilities and buses for their staff instead of billy big stuff driving around in Jaguars. Some of those directors are on silly £££ a year.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: thegamer7893

thegamer7893

Well-Known Member
418
277
TfL aren’t the problem, it’s the decisions made towards the end of the 80s to tie in with the rest of the country, the break up of the National Bus Company brought about the competition, the Conservatives believed that competition would improve services. In some ways it has, but it took London a long time to get it right. Garages were still doing what they like until iBus arrived (the system doesn’t just play announcements) TfL is non profit as it’s tax payers who fund it, TfL doesn’t operate routes; not one, every facet of their existence is sub contracted out.

The only thing TfL run is the London Underground. They can only regulate so operators can’t set their own fares, but they can penalise. TfL seem to only have school children in mind, but in London they travel for free; when I was in secondary school 2000-2005 we had a pass that was only for the zone the school was in. Not a zip oyster (thank Ken Livingston & Gordon Brown fi dat)

Beside the point; TfL if they fell under, I doubt the operators would stick around as a lot of them are getting tired of trying to operate in such poor conditions. TfL don’t know what they’re doing, as I said above they only care about school kids not us who work and pay through our noses to travel.

I would rather the money be used to support those who are self employed and these greedy bus operators actually spend the money and get better facilities and buses for their staff instead of billy big stuff driving around in Jaguars. Some of those directors are on silly £££ a year.

This is my whole thing, how do they think that they can be on 3 or 4 figure salaries and do nothing when they have a LOT of big issues that they need to sort out.

Going slightly off topic though - by you going to school in the years that you've mentioned, I assume that you are aged 30+ @LT586 🤷‍♂️
 
  • Haha
Reactions: owen6116

LT586

Living in the editor
1,102
1,261
This is my whole thing, how do they think that they can be on 3 or 4 figure salaries and do nothing when they have a LOT of big issues that they need to sort out.

Going slightly off topic though - by you going to school in the years that you've mentioned, I assume that you are aged 30+ @LT586
🤷‍♂️
30+ yep And spent a few years in a number of garages, majority got a good lump sum when the companies bought out the operations late 90s and they all know each other. Problem is the competition; they have league tables in garages which show where they are in accident rate; which is higher in the Harrow / Ealing / Perivale region just because of the demographic of drivers they have; also E, a lot of Enfield drivers are temps and the shoddy performance on the 191 in the last few weeks has been shocking. It’s more like TfL get the complaints; pass it to the garage and thats as far as it goes. There is no accountability, but TfL will fine a garage for failing to meet the 100% service quality. They’re all on QIC contracts with strict KPIs to be met, some take it more seriously than others but you can complain until you’re blue in the face. It doesn’t go any further.

As I said before; they’re paid per mile not per passenger; so during lockdown it was a clear example who is making it and who isn’t. They stripped TfL (LT) of all powers and now it’s a shell company that is just there to “monitor”
 
  • Like
Reactions: thegamer7893

thegamer7893

Well-Known Member
418
277
30+ yep And spent a few years in a number of garages, majority got a good lump sum when the companies bought out the operations late 90s and they all know each other. Problem is the competition; they have league tables in garages which show where they are in accident rate; which is higher in the Harrow / Ealing / Perivale region just because of the demographic of drivers they have; also E, a lot of Enfield drivers are temps and the shoddy performance on the 191 in the last few weeks has been shocking. It’s more like TfL get the complaints; pass it to the garage and thats as far as it goes. There is no accountability, but TfL will fine a garage for failing to meet the 100% service quality. They’re all on QIC contracts with strict KPIs to be met, some take it more seriously than others but you can complain until you’re blue in the face. It doesn’t go any further.

As I said before; they’re paid per mile not per passenger; so during lockdown it was a clear example who is making it and who isn’t. They stripped TfL (LT) of all powers and now it’s a shell company that is just there to “monitor”

To sum up, TFL are bums and need to sack all of their management team from top to bottom
 

Advertisement

LT586

Living in the editor
1,102
1,261
I call it bloated schedules; too many buses needing to be on any route at any given time, and following each other in a headway set up. Only Night Buses are on a timetable of sorts; but the cost per mile is higher due to empty roads; so any lost mileage at night is treated as severe.

Basically this, when they privatised London Buses London Transport had more of a say; slowly over the years since they renamed it TfL 🙄 and the GLA took over from the GLC its slowly gone down hill.

TfL is just a brand name holding company for the GLA, the GLA will probably be disbanded completely if TfL collapse. Whereas before, the GLC was the council for London which all boroughs would regularly meet to sing from the same hymn sheet.

An interesting book for all this madness is Privatising London’s Buses by Roger Torode.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thegamer7893

LT586

Living in the editor
1,102
1,261
I call it bloated schedules; too many buses needing to be on any route at any given time, and following each other in a headway set up. Only Night Buses are on a timetable of sorts; but the cost per mile is higher due to empty roads; so any lost mileage at night is treated as severe.

Basically this, when they privatised London Buses London Transport had more of a say; slowly over the years since they renamed it TfL 🙄 and the GLA took over from the GLC its slowly gone down hill.

TfL is just a brand name for the GLA, the GLA (Greater London Authority) will probably be disbanded completely if TfL collapse. Whereas before, the GLC was the council for London which all boroughs would regularly meet to sing from the same hymn sheet (or thereabouts) I’m not too clear on the GLCs role with TfL as it was private before 1933 then it became London Transport

An interesting book for all this madness is Privatising London’s Buses by Roger Torode.

I would say the smaller companies like Abellio will loose out and Arriva and Go Ahead or Go Ahead will take over. Metroline, their standards are really poor. So is Slavecoach...
 
  • Like
Reactions: thegamer7893

BKG93

BKG Studios
67
367
Disclaimer: not all the things I would do are mentioned below

For a start - As much as people would not like to see this happen, I would give all the routes to a single operator whilst ending the contacting process as imo, it seams like a process which just f--ks over operators (even if certain issues aren't their fault (i.e. the constant roadworks in Enfield (as mentioned by @LT586))).

Then, I would split the bus operations so that each area can be specifically managed whilst still been monitored and controlled by central management. At the same time, I would introduce express routes to provide commuters with direct (and somewhat) quick links into the centre of London.

Thirdly, I would try and re-introduce Greenline services to the home counties as a way of trying to compete with rail services. The idea behind these bus services would be Intercity bus services that run from centre of London and will go to major towns/cities in the Home Counties (excluding Sussex (and possibly some others)). This may not be a good idea but since train services are only getting more expensive and worse, I think that now is a good time to capitalise on those issues and create healthy competition to the rail services.



Who says you cant have aspirations?
Buses direct to central London for commuters...in rush hour...good luck keeping that one on time!
 

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
  2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
  5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
  6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  7. This thread is locked.

Users who are viewing this thread