Arriva Trains Wales getting new stock...

Diesel, Overhead electric or 3rd rail electric?

  • Diesel

  • Overhead Electric

  • 3rd rail electric

  • All three!

  • Other


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BailsBach

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2016
138
FINALLY!
Arriva Trains Wales have ordered 5 new class 319s which are 'tri-fueled', meaning they can run on overhead electric, diesel OR 3rd rail electric, similar to the London Underground.
[EDIT: Kieron has noted that the London Underground uses 4th rail electric, not 3rd, so thanks for that correction :) ]

To me, this is very exciting, as we've had the same 142s, 143s and 150s running the valley lines for close to 20 years. In addition, electrification will hopefully be coming to Cardiff, Wales' capital, as part of the new Metro investment, which will introduce new infrastructure to the rail, possible new modes of transport and a new bus interchange in the centre.

If you're interested, read the full update here:
Welsh Government and Arriva Trains Wales announce additional trains

:)
 
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BailsBach

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2016
138
3rd rail electric seems very interesting
Yeah... I can see it being used on isolated parts of lines, rather than constantly, due to the risks associated with it; I'd like to see them utilise all 3 options though, but they probably wont due to the lack of money available to invest in the backbone that is Wales. :(
 
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LB14

Veteran Member
Mar 28, 2016
319
Aren't they only intended as a short term stop gap solution, just like the er... well Pacers! Haha
 
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BailsBach

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2016
138
Aren't they only intended as a short term stop gap solution, just like the er... well Pacers! Haha
PACERS? Short term solution?
> has pacers with same fabric on seat as they came shipped 30 years ago...
 
D

Deleted member 422

FINALLY!
Arriva Trains Wales have ordered 5 new class 319s which are 'tri-fueled', meaning they can run on overhead electric, diesel OR 3rd rail electric, similar to the London Underground.

To me, this is very exciting, as we've had the same 142s, 143s and 150s running the valley lines for close to 20 years. In addition, electrification will hopefully be coming to Cardiff, Wales' capital, as part of the new Metro investment, which will introduce new infrastructure to the rail, possible new modes of transport and a new bus interchange in the centre.

If you're interested, read the full update here:
Welsh Government and Arriva Trains Wales announce additional trains

:)
Erm, London Underground doesn't use Diesel, Overhead Electric or 3rd Rail Electric. Only uses 4th Rail Electric for all lines in all places...
 

BailsBach

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2016
138
Yup... they will be brand new from factory, surprisingly, as they're planned to be the newer model which also features diesel power, not only electric. Arriva have stated that, because they want to 'get the trains into service as quickly as possible' (which is a surprise and major change of attitude, lol), that they will still be in factory style colours, which I think is silver / grey. Don't quote me though :P
 
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0118999

Do'er of administrative things
Administrator
Premium Subscriber
Oct 24, 2016
545
"all the benefits of a new train" bet they won't have air conditioning though. Usual story, London and the South East gets shiny new things and all their castoffs are given turd polish and sent out in to the provinces.
 
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BailsBach

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2016
138
"all the benefits of a new train" bet they won't have air conditioning though. Usual story, London and the South East gets shin new things and all their cast offs are given turd polish and sent out in to the provinces.
Bring back British Rail ;)
 

Lakitu

Prepare for trouble! Make it double!
Content Control
Jan 1, 1970
738
From Wikipedia

Constructed 1987–88, 1990

To be fair, that is new for ATW.
 

Joshua Horton

Virtual Hub Dart Minister
Jul 5, 2016
156
I doubt third rail will come - the whole reason the 319s are being converted to 769s is that they can run on unelectrified sections - I doubt Wales will get 3rd rail.
 

BailsBach

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2016
138
I doubt third rail will come - the whole reason the 319s are being converted to 769s is that they can run on unelectrified sections - I doubt Wales will get 3rd rail.
You doubt it, and yet the whole point of 'The South Wales Metro' is to electrify the network of trains, and possibly introduce trams. :tongueout: I don't think it's viable that we would have overhanging wires for the whole duration, especially going over bridges such as the viaduct in Porthkerry.

But, Chris Rose, you're correct ;( They're nearly as old as the current 150s we have and they're fitting an engine. I can't believe the Welsh Government would subsidise this nonsense lol; they've even decided to invest £1 million into a mere 5 new trains, 2 carriages each for the whole South Wales network.

It's a shambles... I think it's time we had a public-run transport system, where the Government would invest a sum of money into a stock of trains (not leased trains though, brand new trains), then try and earn that back in sales over a 10 year period.
Even if Maggie thought it was for the best to sell off the franchise of British Rail, in the long-run I think it's caused more issues than fixed in the short-term.
Arriva Trains Wales are making something around £500 million a year, and have only invested about £30m into the ENTIRE NETWORK IN THE COUNTRY (and yet DB's lines in Germany, the company who own Arriva, have luxury electric throughout -- wonder where that £470m of money is going... definitely not into the UK). It's gotten to the point where the Government having to GIVE them money to actually invest in the network.
 

Joshua Horton

Virtual Hub Dart Minister
Jul 5, 2016
156
You doubt it, and yet the whole point of 'The South Wales Metro' is to electrify the network of trains, and possibly introduce trams. :tongueout: I don't think it's viable that we would have overhanging wires for the whole duration, especially going over bridges such as the viaduct in Porthkerry.

But, Chris Rose, you're correct ;( They're nearly as old as the current 150s we have and they're fitting an engine. I can't believe the Welsh Government would subsidise this nonsense lol; they've even decided to invest £1 million into a mere 5 new trains, 2 carriages each for the whole South Wales network.

It's a shambles... I think it's time we had a public-run transport system, where the Government would invest a sum of money into a stock of trains (not leased trains though, brand new trains), then try and earn that back in sales over a 10 year period.
Even if Maggie thought it was for the best to sell off the franchise of British Rail, in the long-run I think it's caused more issues than fixed in the short-term.
Arriva Trains Wales are making something around £500 million a year, and have only invested about £30m into the ENTIRE NETWORK IN THE COUNTRY (and yet DB's lines in Germany, the company who own Arriva, have luxury electric throughout -- wonder where that £470m of money is going... definitely not into the UK). It's gotten to the point where the Government having to GIVE them money to actually invest in the network.
More likely OHLE - More things can run on OHLE, at higher speeds, whereas third rail is 100mph restricted, and more unreliable. The 769s only have third rail capability, because there was no point to remove it - just because they have it, doesn't mean that it will be used.
EDIT: Also, seeing as the ORR are saying that third rail has a "limited future", and are looking to convert existing sections of third rail to OHLE, I highly doubt any new third rail lines will come about.
 
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D

Deleted member 422

May I just put it out there, that the currently fleet operating in the Souith East, has an average age of 19 years. The average age of trains across the whole of the UK is only 21 years old (No doubt boosted a bit by London). ATW's average age of rolling stock is 27 years old, so I think it can be accountable fully to London and the South East. To be honest, there isn't overly many South East cast offs floating around bar the 319's. Usually, South East cast-offs go to another London operator, as seen with the 456's, 377's and 442's.

EDIT-May I also point out, that discounting Thameslink stock, it is 22 years old, only 5 years difference, from ATW's stock....

More likely OHLE - More things can run on OHLE, at higher speeds, whereas third rail is 100mph restricted, and more unreliable. The 769s only have third rail capability, because there was no point to remove it - just because they have it, doesn't mean that it will be used.
EDIT: Also, seeing as the ORR are saying that third rail has a "limited future", and are looking to convert existing sections of third rail to OHLE, I highly doubt any new third rail lines will come about.
Indeed! There was once a plan to incorporate OHLE when London Bridge was rebuilt...but thankfully it never came round.
 
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BailsBach

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2016
138
May I just put it out there, that the currently fleet operating in the Souith East, has an average age of 19 years. The average age of trains across the whole of the UK is only 21 years old (No doubt boosted a bit by London). ATW's average age of rolling stock is 27 years old, so I think it can be accountable fully to London and the South East. To be honest, there isn't overly many South East cast offs floating around bar the 319's. Usually, South East cast-offs go to another London operator, as seen with the 456's, 377's and 442's.

EDIT-May I also point out, that discounting Thameslink stock, it is 22 years old, only 5 years difference, from ATW's stock....


Indeed! There was once a plan to incorporate OHLE when London Bridge was rebuilt...but thankfully it never came round.
I'm not sure what your point is? :tongueout:

Either way, trains on the valley lines go a maximum speed (and peak at) around 40-50MPH, therefore not needing overhead wires, so third rail would be possible. Also, to support speeds quicker than what they're set at currently, would mean a massive infrastructure overhaul, creating man-made chasms and banks which are already featured on the line (from Rhoose to Cardiff, and beyond).

In addition, a class 66 freight train runs every-so-often to Aberthaw power station, which is powered by coal. These trains do not exceed fast speeds, as the line has many corners and faults throughout. I wouldn't completely rule out the fact that overhead wires aren't needed in this case for the valley lines, because the route from Barry to Cardiff only takes 30 minutes with 6 stations in between, making it a decently short route.

Overhead wires not only ruin the aesthetic of a line and area, but they're less cost efficient, and have a shorter life span compared to 3rd rail. I would completely support overhead wires between Swansea and Paddington, because trains there run a max of 125mph, but on an old steam-engine designed coal route as compact as the London Underground, I wouldn't think so.

Another issue with 3rd rail is having issues supporting 4 cars sufficiently, which would definitely be needed on the valley lines by around 2025 and beyond.
There will definitely be inquiries before they start slapping down any old electric lines. The planned date for the electrification to be finished is 2023, but the Welsh Government now has proposed that a later date might be necessary due to Brexit.

[EDIT = Some houses are even positioned only 6-7 meters away from the line, seperated by a metal fence.. would they want overhanging wires there?]
 
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0118999

Do'er of administrative things
Administrator
Premium Subscriber
Oct 24, 2016
545
I'm not sure that third rail is more cost efficient (could you advise your source?) because Network Rail has said ideally they would phase it out. It's not just speed considerations as there's OHLE on slower commuter lines; third rail runs at a significantly lower DC voltage so you need a lot more metal to move the same amount of energy (i.e. spindly wires and gantries are a lot cheaper than fat power rails). Also 3rd rail is less resilient to snow and minor flooding. On that basis I would say it's almost certainly going to be OHLE electrification.

Can't say I buy the aesthetics argument, I mean there's a great big sodding brown scar that is the railbed already, I've never heard of OHLE being refused on aesthetic grounds outside of city centre tramways. OHLE is less intrusive than roadside lamp posts, and the cables are not at high level or across fields like the national grid.
 

0118999

Do'er of administrative things
Administrator
Premium Subscriber
Oct 24, 2016
545
there isn't overly many South East cast offs floating around bar the 319's. Usually, South East cast-offs go to another London operator, as seen with the 456's, 377's and 442's.
That's only because all the third rail network is down there. They would've pushed their oldest stuff on to Merseyrail but they already have the oldest third rail stock (Class 508/508) built between 1978-1980!